SINGAPORE — Seems like our We RAT On series is on a roll! After our recent lengthy Q&A with playwright Michael Chiang, it’s on to The Finger Players, which is celebrating its 15th anniversary with an exhibition and back-to-back restagings: Turn By Turn We Turn, which is currently running, and Roots. Do make sure to check out the lovely video we’ve done featuring co-founder and artistic director Tan Beng Tian and the rest of the gang here. In the meantime, here’s our chat with company director Chong Tze Chien and resident director-artist Oliver Chong.

Turn By Turn We Turn runs until Oct 12 while Roots is from Oct 16 to 26 at Drama Centre Black Box. Tickets from S$30 at SISTIC. The anniversary exhibition will be up at the foyer until Oct 26.

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Q: The Finger Players is celebrating its 15th anniversary this year. Have you found your identity?

TC: I think it keeps evolving. There are several stages. First, the days when we were at TTP (The Theatre Practice). Then from 1999 to 2004 was the first generation. Then from 2004 up to this point is second gen. We’re moving to the third gen.

Q: But that then that so-called second generation also has its different phases?

TC: I think it was an organic evolution because I think we were still building up the methodology, the vocabulary and the team to where we are today. I think from 2010 onwards, when things became more settled. From 2004 to 2010, we were still trying to work out teething issues, beginning with how the ensemble worked with one another, how each of us evolved as artists.

I think what sets us apart from other companies is the fact that we are not a company that is shaped by the personality of the artistic director. It’s essentially a collective. But there isn’t a precedent, at least in local theatre history. We had to work out that mechanism.

Q: How did you come to work with TFP in 2004?

TC: I started out with The Necessary Stage where I was a company playwright. To draw an analogy, it would have been my parents’ home for four years. I had a space of my own to be creative as an emerging artist. But it will always be your parents’ home and everything will be seen in the context of your parents.

Q: So you grew up and moved.

TC: The story was, TNS had their funding cut. We were huge, seven artists, and some members in the grant selection panel convened by NAC felt that TNS was getting too schizophrenic and were supporting too many artists at the expense of Haresh (Sharma) and Alvin (Tan)’s works. So that particular year, they reduced funding and as a result of that, TNS couldn’t afford to keep myself and many others. They had to change their strategy and reshuffle their resources.

But funnily enough, the day after I left, (TFP co-founder and artistic director Tan) Beng Tian called me and said she wanted to engage me to write Furthest North, Deepest South. She had already struck a deal with Tina (Sargeant), who was artistic director of Mime Unlimited, our neighbor (at Cairnhill Arts Centre). They wanted to collaborate on a project and wanted me to write it. So I said sure, then I told her I had left TNS. So she wanted me to then join to kind of overhaul the company. It was just one day after another. Within 48 hours, all these just happened…

Q: And were you aware it was a puppet company?

TC: I knew Finger Players since 1999, when I started freelancing. I acted in one production of theirs, Sang Nila. Shortly after, Beng Tian officially registered the company and needed a board of directors. So I’ve been on the board since 1999.

Q: So you knew your puppets.

TC: Via one production. It was a children’s production and it went to Vienna as part of a festival. That was my first encounter with puppets.

Q: So happened once you joined as TFP company director?

TC: Suddenly you had a blank canvas right? I think the impulse came from the fact that The Finger Players, (co-founder Ong) Kian Sin and herself, were tired of being labeled as a children’s theatre group. They wanted to explore darker materials and felt that the company couldn’t do it because the sponsors or the audience would always pigeonhole them — and puppetry — as a children’s theatre group.

So I came in and at that time there was only one administrator, with no Xerox machine and no fax machine. That’s all I remember. (laughs) From TNS where we had everything, built up over 10 years, you suddenly come to an outfit that had almost close to zero. We had our spaces but there wasn’t any business model or administration to speak of. At that time, the projects were more ad hoc. As and when they would have engagements or get a commission, they would then mount a production. So it’s very seldom that they’d mount a ticketed performance. It’s usually under a children’s arts festival of some kind or a community tour in some libraries or schools.

But what they also did in those four years was travel a lot. They went to many festivals, sometimes three times a year. They got into the festival circuit very quickly because at that time, the vocab went beyond traditional hand puppetry. Because the inception of The Finger Players was (that Kuo) Pao Kun wanted a traditional hand puppetry troupe (for The Theatre Practice’s children’s theatre wing), which was why he got Beng Tian, Kian Sin, Benjamin Ho and one other member (to start one).

But then, when they left The Theatre Practice, they started to explore other forms and styles, and fuse things together. In the European market, (TFP was Asian but there was some Euro-centric influences in the way it they crafted and manipulated the puppets. It was a kind of melting pot of the two styles so I think because of that it became very, very unique.

And I always remember this story: A group of Singaporeans once went over to Prague to study puppetry, because it’s where you learn puppetry right? And we had already been there a couple of years before them, doing a workshop, a master class, a performance. So the the instructors told them, “Why don’t you learn this from The Finger Players in Singapore? Why did you have to come all the way here?”

(TFP) had an international presence, but locally, it’s the opposite. You wouldn’t think of coming to watch a Finger Players show because you’d think it was for kids. There’s a certain mindset about what puppetry can do and what it should be. And I think, when they went to all these international festivals, they played to all these adults and children. So that was when Kian Sin and Beng Tian and the rest wanted to entertain that notion (of performing for adults).

But the first couple of years were tough because of lack of resources as well as that mindset, which was why we wanted to work with Mime Unlimited. Prior to Furthest North, Deepest South, the only other ticketed theatre performance that Finger Players did was Nezha in 2001. It was a S$30,000 production — for a company that had no regular income.

Q: When did you join, Oliver?

O: 2004. After Tze Chien.

TC: Beng Tian saw him in an audition for (TTP’s) Lao Jiu and came back very excited, telling me about this particular actor whom she was very impressed with. W

Q: What was your background?

O: Design background. I studied interior design at NAFA and started working as an interior/graphic/product/toy designer. But I was already performing since I was five years old, but officially, it was with Drama Box. I started out designing their publicity materials and when (artistic director Kok) Heng Leun found out that I was actually an actor, he asked me to start acting and training with them as well.

Q: What was your connection to puppetry?

O: It was when I came in that I took it up through Beng Tian and Kian Sin. I did design and so it was easy to transfer over (the skills) and I did a lot of physical theatre, too, so that could be transferred as well.

TC: His first production was Between The Devil And The Deep Blue Sea (in 2005), which was half a year after (Furthest North, Deepest South).

Q: So what was the reaction to this “new look” Finger Players?

TC: It was tough, challenging. I knew were not gonna have a packed house for Furthest North, Deepest South because both companies (TFP and Mime Unlimited) never had that reputation or history of playing to adult audiences. We made it very, very clear in everything from the publicity material to press interviews that it was an adult production. But even the actors themselves were confused midway through the rehearsals. “Wait a minute, is this too mature for the kids?”

So true enough, we played to 50 per cent (of the house) at Ngee Ann Auditorium at Asian Civilisations Museum. It was a 200-seater and we had four performances. On average, it was maybe 50 — or 80 on a good night. We made a huge loss and needed to absorb the coast because we felt we needed to make our presence known in that way.

Officially, because Furthest North was a collaboration, our first production as Between The Devil And The Deep Blue Sea. But I think, for people who saw Furthest North, the media, the practitioners, there was some traction going on by word of mouth. People became interested in Between The Devil And The Deep Blue Sea. I think it was curiosity. “What is this Finger Players all about?”

Q: But that’s strange, because it’s been around.

TC: The funny thing is, not many practitioners had even seen a Finger Players production prior to Furthest North, because for them it was children’s theatre. Furthest North was whimsical, Between The Devil was just dark. (laughs)

Q: As a playwright, did you have to change the way you did things, Tze Chien?

TC: Not really, but I had to change the way I directed. Because there’s now a new device, puppetry, which is very concrete, very theatrical but very specific as well. So how do you incorporate that without making it seem like a gimmick? We wanted to feature puppetry but not be held ransom by it. We wanted to look at the fusion of disciplines to support the storytelling — I think that was the main goal.

Q: Did you have any visual or theatrical pegs with which to remould TFP?

TC: Not really. I just look at pictures, on YouTube, or videos on the Internet. I think I use that as a reference, but what was more important was to carve an identity or language that was unique to us. We already have trained puppeteers and trained designers.

And the other main difference was, I had also asked (lighting designer Lim) Woan Wen and (sound designer) Darren (Ng) to join us as associates. In 2004, I officially made Darren as the associate sound designer and then Woan Wen had just came back from Hong Kong. We go back a long way, since NUS, where she was trying to practice as a lighting designer. I called them associates is because I wanted to work with them on a long-term basis and to develop as artists together. By that time we had Beng Tian, Kian Sin, Oliver who took over from Benjamin, who left very shortly (to teach full-time and later form Paper Monkey). (TFP artist) Ang Hui Bin joined a year later, We had a core team that was quite self-contained. We had designers, actors, creators, and puppet-makers. It’s a nice and tight little team that could work as a collective. That was the DNA by the time FNDS was mounted and Between The Devil was a groundbreaking production for us because that was when we worked very, very closely with one another to work out a language that would be unique to us as an ensemble.

Q: How would you characterize that production then?

TC: Fusion. It was about sensitivity to the staging devices and the storytelling. So I took my expertise as a playwright/director, the actors their sensitivity to the script and to the play, the puppet-makers who crafted puppets from scratch to support the story and the direction, the designers adding on that very specific language, which is light and sound, which is integral to the storytelling. Everything kind of came together in that production and we kind of caught a glimpse of what it could be (for us) in 10, 15 years.

Q: But was there still a kind of novelty factor?

TC: Definitely it was still a novelty. We ran for two weeks, the second week was entirely sold out, and many of the people who came were practitioners who were very, very curious. Especially because by that time we had just won for Best Production of the Year (for the Life! Theatre Awards for Furthest North, Deepest South) — and nobody saw it coming. It was like, “Okay let’s just check out this competition!” (laughs) I think they were sufficiently impressed. Nobody knew I would embark on this when I left TNS. Nobody knew we had so many fresh faces — or what they would consider as fresh faces but actually had such a long history of working in theatre — coming together to mount a production that, in hindsight, was very mature.

Q: As one of those fresh-but-actually-not faces, what made working with TFP different?

O: When I joined Finger Players, I was only interested in serving the whole team’s vision and see how I can support it. Over time, when I had already grasped more or less what Finger Players was, and began to understand that I wasn’t expected to just follow but to contribute. That freed me up. I think very visually and the style wasn’t very much different from The Finger Players.

Q: Actually, what’s the creative process like at TFP? Is it like, “Oh, I’ve got an idea”?

TC: Yeah, as simple and democratic as that. It’s very much, “Would anyone like to create?” And then a show of hands. (laughs) How (Oliver’s) I’m Just A Piano Teacher (from 2006) came about was he had already been doing something for our series for children. When he joined the company, the older members decided that he, together with Wan Sze, would direct, design and perform in our children’s theatre platform. So he did that. But I could sense there was something in him that went beyond being just an actor. He wanted to create. There was something brewing. So that year, when we were planning our seasons, I think he volunteered. Prior to that he had very little writing experience. I met him over coffee and talked about the very basic tenets of playwriting then he just took off.

Q: Can we shift direction and talk about TFP as a puppet theatre company. Is it one?

TC: It’s not. It’s a theatre company that specialises in puppets. The difference is that we’re a theatre company that is multi-disciplinary but with foundations in puppetry. We are not limited by puppetry. We don’t dictate (the use of puppets), put it that way. So with our recent productions, we are reinventing the language of puppetry on our terms. And because of that, it goes above and beyond puppetry.

Puppetry is about the manipulation of inanimate objects, right? So we extended this philosophy to our staging devices — the sensitivity to the lights, the sounds, the staging elements. You find that in Roots, in To Whom It May Concern, in Rant And Rave even. How you animate something and make it come alive in front of the audience via text, sound, light, acting…

Q: Your back-to-back 15th anniversary productions seem like the perfect contrast in the sense that Turn By Turn We Turn really uses traditional Chinese hand puppets while Roots doesn’t even seem to have any puppets in the conventional sense right?

O: No puppet actually. It’s an empty stage with a thin layer of rice grains, there’re just props, like a rake, a radio, a rice cooker… Actually, some years back, I did feel that I was held ransom by puppetry. That’s why I kept asking TC, “So for every show I create, I must have a puppet puppet? Is that it?” And he’d say, “No, we’re not a puppet company. It’s just that we’re known for our puppets so it’d be good if we can have puppetry in there. But do not let puppetry be the main thing that’s leading us in our own work.” He told me that but I wasn’t convinced. That’s why after many times of asking, I think he got fed up. (laughs) “We’re not a puppet company.” “Yah, but so far, all the shows, we have puppets in there! So how am I supposed to be the first one without any puppets?” (laughs)

The first show that I thought there wasn’t really a puppet was To Whom It May Concern with Karen Tan. And I remember, during the show, Miss Moh Siew Lan (of Goethe-Institut) turned to me afterwards and asked, “So, where’s the puppet ah?” (laughs) Then I said, “Did you see the shadow of the bird? That’s the puppet.” “Oh…” (laughs)

I know audiences probably expect or anticipate a puppet to come onstage when it’s a Finger Players show. But when it came to Roots, there’s really no puppets. During the early stages, I spent three whole weeks alone in the rehearsal space, which drove me crazy. I was trying different ways. “Maybe I can have puppets here? No, I shouldn’t think like that.” In the end, I just knew I wanted it to be as minimal as possible. I wanted to stage it as a monologue because of The Coffin Is Too Big For The Hole, which I had watched when I was maybe eight? And I can still remember it so vividly — just one man on the stage with nothing but a chair.

Q: So how do you decide what kind of puppets (or elements of puppetry) come into play?

TC: We decide by looking at the story. So, like, the chalk thing (in The Book Of Living And Dying) came about as the result of us immersing ourselves in the Tibetan monastery. The whole team was there, the designers, actors, puppeteers, and we shared notes and everything that we experienced that day we consolidated and discussed every night. And I think that encapsulates our working methodology — it’s a seamless and unified coherent language. The operative word is “seamless”.

Q: What about say, something like 2010’s suitCASES?

TC: Kian Sin’s very interested in developing a visual language that overrides everything else. If you trace his development, his performances tend to veer towards performance installation: 0501, suitCASES, One Fine Day. I consider him a puppet master because his designs are so… he’s so sensitive to the design of puppetry that I’m very amazed every time I see him construct puppets using the simplest material. He’ll be out shopping for materials one day and at the end of that day, he’d be done and you’re like, wow. And it’s simple and yet it’s so versatile and wonderfully crafted. So he’s always been an artist interested in finding a language that’s non-textual.

Q: What about life outside of TFP? I’m thinking primarily of your defunct collective, A Group Of People, Oliver, but also the rest seem to work with other groups regularly as well.

O: That was another totally different company. We came back from SITI Company (workshop). I was “moonlighting”. (RAT Note: In a roundabout way, Roots’, erm, roots were in another ad hoc group called Square One, comprising Chong and other fellow La Mama symposium participants.)

TC: It was his artistic holiday from the company. I think with us, it’s an open relationship. (laughs) We feel that it’s very, very important to collaborate as and when with other companies. That’s why Beng Tian is involved with Drama Box’s community tours, Kian Sin has worked with Drama Box for the tours as well. I’ve worked with (Teater) Ekamatra. At the end of the day, we want to develop artists. The artists are free to create within and outside the company.

Q: The same goes with INDEX, the design collective of Darren, Woan Wen and Lim Wei Ling, I presume. Their Esplanade recent production was not part of TFP right?

TC: It had nothing to do (with TFP) but whenever you talk to them, they always consider TFP as a home. Many of their things are here. (laughs) Next year they’re doing something for The Finger Players.

Q: Since we’re talking about future plans, let’s wrap up with that.

TC: We start next year with INDEX’s performance installation in March, followed by a community tour helmed by (TFP artist Ang) Hui Bin. And then in April and May, we’re working with the Esplanade on a special SG50-related edition of The Studios which celebrates English language theatre. There’ll be 50 Singapore plays, five of which will be restaged and 45 dramatised readings. So Oliver is directing Off-Centre. I’m co-curating the entire season with Esplanade. It’s basically The Studios’ season for next year.

Then we’ll have our annual children’s theatre series, Samsui Women in July. This November I’ll be going to Japan (for a new show Rice), which will be brought to Singapore in October, followed by Oliver’s collaboration with Elvira Holmberg.